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I have a 35Kg Bruce starboard (75lb) and a 45 lb CQR port. Also, a 25 lb Fortress in the stern.
On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 8:47 PM, Alan P < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Jack, I don't have the extended platform. But, I have a 45 lbs Bruce on the stb side and a 45 CQR on the port. All seems to fit.
alan— On Tue, 2/24/09, Jack P Clarke < ([email][/email])> wrote:
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Hi John,
I've never taken it apart – but the rudder post extends past the rudder and is held in place vertically and horizontally by the bottom fitting. It is a gudgeon of sorts with the rudder post being the pintle. But it is the sheer weight of the rudder that holds it down – there are no pins. Removing that lower fitting would result in the rudder falling to the autopilot arm or the quadrant, whichever comes first. That is, in fact, how you remove the rudder and post.
Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Here's the problem, Rich. We tend to value our boats far more than a buyer would. That's only natural. Whatever the 424s are selling for is what buyers are willing to pay.
That said, without knowing the particular boat, it is entirely possible the 40k 424 is in terrible condition. Also, without knowing the seller's position or needs, it may just be they have to get out of it. Moreover, it might be a case of selling it before the yard takes it in a mechanic's lien and auction.
If you are investing in Blacksheep in the hopes you're raising it's value you are, as they say, shoveling excrement against the tide. Our boats will reach a level beyond which they won't depreciate anymore but it will never, ever be what we paid for them or invested in them. Boats are a really, really bad investment strategy.
I know that I bought Pelican two years ago for 75k and have since put more than 30k into here for new equipment, upgrades and maintenance. I'm sure, however, she's still worth 70-75K in a decent market. But this isn't a decent market. So, our boats, if we want to sell them, are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for them and no more.
Personally, I'm hoping that when I die, they set Pelican up on autopilot under sail with an incendiary device aboard set to go off when she wanders somewhere in mid ocean. Then they place me sitting at the helm and send her on her way.
But that won't happen, I'm sure.
Bob
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Rich,No, you're not way off base on the resale value of these boats. In fact, if you average out the selling prices of the hundred-odd 424's in the Sold Boats database list I sent to the group last week, I suspect it'll be in that range. But those are not the complete refit boats. A Pearson 424 all redone – and most of us know what that entails – should fetch $100k-plus while the new equipment is still fairly new. Of course, you'll have at least that much cash into the boat at that point. Forget about the million man-hours of hard labor.
You're mistaken about the cost of repowering, though. I had a new Yanmar 4JH4E beautifully installed by the local dealer down here for a little under $16k (not including sales tax, which I wasn't obligated to pay). On top of that, I sold the 30-year-old Westerbeke that came with my boat for $2,000 thru eBay. It was still running strong. I just didn't want to begin a 10-year (give or take 10 years) cruise with such an antique, especially since it had not been maintained worth a damn. I'm just not that into engine mechanics.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi Rich,
Thanks – I bought a similar set a few years ago and they are the kind of tool you don't need often, but boy, oh, boy, when you need them you need them bad.
Bob
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 1:57 PM, < ([email][/email])> wrote:
I have to admit that I'm a tool junkie. Whenever I have a new project, I usually try to find a new tool or two that will make the job go easier. Last weekend I had to remove an engine mount and had very limited space to access the bolts. My plan was to take the weight off the mount with a cable winch, then squeeze in there with wrenches and pull the engine mount. Since this was being done with the engine in place, there was very little room. These wrenches saved me, so I thought I'd send out a recommendation. Last year, I bought these gearwrench sockets at Sears.
http://www.gearwrench.com/catalog/wrenches/ratcheting/quadbox/Each wrench works with four different sized bolts, so a pair of them will handle eight sizes. They have a fine gear mechanism that clicks 72 times in one revolution. This is needed if you have a bolt that doesn't give you much room to work the wrench. These are very well made and take up little space. Don't confuse these with the cheap similar wrenches sold at discount stores.
If you're accessing a nut that has very limited access, the wrenches are available in a more compact form with only one size on each end. The head on these wrenches is just slightly larger than a standard box wrench.
http://www.gearwrench.com/catalog/wrenches/ratcheting/double_box/If you can't quite get the box over the nut, you can adapt them to hold a thin-wall socket using these adapters. These don't fit on the quadrabox wrenches. This makes a very short ratchet. This is the only tool that I could find that would remove the engine mount bolts on my Yanmar.
http://www.gearwrench.com/catalog/wrenches/ratcheting/e-torx_and_drive_adapters/setdetails.jsp?part=9231My boat toolbox holds a metric set of quadrabox wrenches, an SAE set of double-ratcheting box wrenches, and the SAE set of socket adapters.
I need another set for the house, but that will have to wait for another project.
Regards
Rich
BlackSheep #47—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
What is really amazing is the huge number of failures that can occur in such a simple system (after all, the supply of fresh water has been solved, more or less, for 10,000 years). I mean, a small screw? I'd never think of that in a million years.
Yet here we are in the 21st century tracking down problems in a system that supplies three sinks and a shower.
Have we really advanced in all those years?
On the serious side, though, air in the system is always a suction side problem, fresh water in the bilge with the pump running continuously or frequently is a pressure side problem.
The only exception is pump running all the time and no pressure. That's a bad pump.
Good luck Mary!
Bob
On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 8:34 AM, John Stevenson < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Mary,
I second Don & Bob's view that this is a suction side problem. Using Bob's recommendation to determine that you get good water flow from the foot pump you can isolate the problem to the portion of the manifold past the valves and the pressure pump. If you don't get good flow from the foot pump, disconnect the hose from the full tank at the manifold. You should see gravity flow of water from the hose. If so the problem is likely in the gate valve, probably the packing nut Bob mentioned. If not then there might be blockage in the tank hose. Try another tank or double check to insure there is at least 1/2 tank of water.The de-pressurization and re-pressurization of the system probably caused a failing component to finally give way.
BTW, I fought a similar problem for over a month, and found the problem to be a small self-tapping screw that was moving around inside the manifold. It finally lodged itself in the hose barb going to the pump and I found it. I suspect the screw was one of those holding the manifold to the bulkhead and it dropped into one of the tank hoses when I removed and serviced the manifold a few weeks earlier.
John
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Robert Fine < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Hi Mary,It sounds like an air leak in the pump suction. There is probably no causal effect from the faucet change. I'd close all valves on the suction to the water pump except one to a tank with water in it. If you still get air in the cold water system then try opening the valve to the foot pump and see if it pumps without air.
If the foot pump pumps without air, the water pump has a leak in the suction. That may mean a rebuild. No big deal, really.
There is something else, too – Each valve to a tank has a packing nut under the handle. If the valves are really easy to spin open and close then you may need to tighten those nuts – I had to do mine because the one to the port tank's packing dried out and shrank. It gave all sorts of air when I used the port tank. Now it's good to go. It doesn't take a big suction leak.
Bob
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 9:03 PM, mary e. springhorn < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Hi, Bob,
No, there is still air coming through the cold water system, but at least I'm getting a goodly supply of water as well. I can't answer as to what kind of pump I have at the moment…I'd have to go and look. I can safely say I don't have empty tanks…I'd topped them off a month or so ago, and don't use all that much in four days out on the water. I haven't tried running the pump with the valves closed, but I can certainly try that experiment. The system worked fine before the faucet change…I'd been out on the boat about a week before hand. BTW, the water heater is not “live”, i.e. it's not being heated by electricity. I don't keep it hot when at the slip. Thanks for your suggestions.Mary
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Hi Mary,
It sounds like an air leak in the pump suction. There is probably no causal effect from the faucet change. I'd close all valves on the suction to the water pump except one to a tank with water in it. If you still get air in the cold water system then try opening the valve to the foot pump and see if it pumps without air.
If the foot pump pumps without air, the water pump has a leak in the suction. That may mean a rebuild. No big deal, really.
There is something else, too – Each valve to a tank has a packing nut under the handle. If the valves are really easy to spin open and close then you may need to tighten those nuts – I had to do mine because the one to the port tank's packing dried out and shrank. It gave all sorts of air when I used the port tank. Now it's good to go. It doesn't take a big suction leak.
Bob
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 9:03 PM, mary e. springhorn < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Hi, Bob,
No, there is still air coming through the cold water system, but at least I'm getting a goodly supply of water as well. I can't answer as to what kind of pump I have at the moment…I'd have to go and look. I can safely say I don't have empty tanks…I'd topped them off a month or so ago, and don't use all that much in four days out on the water. I haven't tried running the pump with the valves closed, but I can certainly try that experiment. The system worked fine before the faucet change…I'd been out on the boat about a week before hand. BTW, the water heater is not “live”, i.e. it's not being heated by electricity. I don't keep it hot when at the slip. Thanks for your suggestions.Mary
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Hi Mary,
Are you saying that the cold water system has vented properly and no longer has air going through it but the hot water system does?
When you depressurize the system you don't empty the water heater. So a little air wouldn't be surprising.
What kind of pump do you have? Is it a diaphram (little arm goes up and down with a belt driven pulley) or some other kind? If air is still coming out of the cold water, you have either empty tanks or air in the pump suction or the pump diaphram is going bad.
If you close all the water valves, does the pump run for a little bit and stop? Does it stop immediately? Or does it continue to run?
Other than that, if the cold water doesn't have air in it but the hot does, turn off the water heater and wait a little while. Run the hot water. Does air stop coming out? If that's the case the thermostat on the water heater has gone bad and the air you're experiencing is steam. I've seen that happen.
Let me know if any of this helps. I know that I replaced all those black plastic fittings with PEX fittings from Home Depot. Stopped all my leaks.
Regards,
Bob
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 6:14 PM, mary e. springhorn < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Hi, All,
I have a problem with which I need any help you can offer. I recently replaced the faucet in the head as it was leaking. I depressurized the fresh water system and emptied it via the galley sink before starting; after putting the new faucet in, I turned on the water pump, and at first everything seemed okay. I bled the system through the two sinks and the shower and got the usual sputtering as air was vented. But it went on longer than I thought it should, and when I turned on the hot water alone, I was greeted by nothing but air. Thinking that I may have cracked the nylon hose barbs when I removed the water tubing (it took a bit of horsing) I replaced them with bronze fittings. Got the same result. For a while I thought maybe it was just taking a long time to recharge the hot water tank (the P.O. replaced it was a much bigger one), but I can't believe it should take over one half hour to fill the tank. My friend at West Marine wondered if there was some sort of anti-siphon loop at the tank, but I can't find anything remotely like this, nor do I see any sort of bleed valve on the expansion tank. I did check the hose clamps on the pump itself (this was an issue some years ago) but they were okay. Any ideas??Thanks,
Mary E. Springhorn
P424 PARALLAX, Hull #61
Sailing out of Bellingham, WA—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Why in God's name would you drill a hole there? I mean, what is the hole for? If you could drill a hole anywhere, why there? It seems like an unlikely place for a hole. Was it random? Did you think, “I need to drill a hole… This seems like a likely spot. Where is that darn drill. Ah, here we go. Look out world here comes a hole!”?
Or, I may not have been paying attention. Or I've had too much to drink, which is totally possible.
BOb
On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Patrick Walters < ([email][/email])> wrote:
3/4″ balsa cored deck for those interested.
http://twitpic.com/1lcswWhew, I was VERY nervous drilling that hole. I need to go each lunch and relax. 🙂
-p
s/v Deep Playa | Pearson 424 #152 | http://www.DeepPlaya.com
Patrick's Sailing Blog | http://www.shipsrecord.com/blogs/patrick—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
Hi Tor,
Great article! I specifically looked for a ketch on my search for Pelican – easily single handed rig, well balanced, flexible sail plan, and most of all a place to hang the bathing suit (mizzen winches) where it won't blow overboard!
Bob
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 7:48 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:John,I have not sailed/anchored my 424 enough yet to speak first hand about this particular design, but I have owned several split-rig cruising sailboats in the past. In my experience, ketches and yawls in general can often benefit by flying the mizzen sail at anchor, sheeted in tightly, to keep the boat's head to the wind. I can't imagine the Pearson 424 would act all that differently.
Perhaps one reason a lot of sailors don't make maximum use of their mizzen sails is because they don't really know how to use them. Some years ago I wrote an article on this subject that appeared in a couple of magazines. It's online at http://www.tor.cc/articles/mizzen.htm . I doubt whether it will tell anyone in this group anything they don't already know, but it does list the reasons I bought another ketch-rigged boat, the ready riding sail among them.
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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Hi John,
Let me think about this some more – it's hard with the cover on my boat. The riding sail is usually made out of Sunbrella or a cloth like that. I may be able to ask my sailmaker about it for ketches. I'll get back to you on that one. Or, if I figure out how to make one I'll let you know.
Bob
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 5:57 PM, John Stevenson < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Thanks for you input Bob. That's probably why I don't see any mizzens set in the anchorage. Don't see any riding sails right now either. The few I've seen have been on sloops, set on the backstay.
Hoping not to have another sail to make or purchase, but I do need to do something about the anchor sailing.
John
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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John,
I'd assume they're actually using a riding sail on the mizzen mast – it's hanked onto the mizzen topping lift and raised with the mizzen halyard. The tack is usually attached to the boom end with a pennant that allows it to be up off the boom. The clew would then be run forward to one of the mizzen winches.
Or, it could the tack could be on the sternrail with a wire through the luff to the mizzen halyard without being attached to the topping lift or some combination of the above.
I'd think even a reefed mizzen would be too much and pretty hard on the sail.
Now that you mention it, perhaps I'll make one…
Bob
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
Hull #8Post generated from Pearson424 Forum using Mail2Forum
That seems very reasonable. Makes sense.
Bob
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Thatcher Stone < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:I think the original idea was, if there was a gas issue at the stove or in the stove you could close that solenoid immediately. Given why I replaced MY stove last year, I can see the usefulness of the second solenoid. Shut off without having to go back to the panel. My installation looks original but I am not sure. I don’t know what the ABYC says but in gas and plumbing world not an issue if proper materials used.And you could test the line using an air pressure system without having to upload floor and remove panels. Of course in my biz aviation we never borescope an engine because if it isn’t known to be bad, we leave it on the wing…..
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Thanks, John, that makes a lot of sense – the PO must have replaced all the copper with hose because that's all there is. Also, the second solenoid is gone. There really isn't much point to it I think.
Bob
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 8:43 AM, John Stevenson < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Bob,
From my (very fragile) owner's manual it appears Alcohol was the standard for at least the early 424s. When Jack & Patricia Tyler purchased Whoosh it was Alcohol and they converted it. However, since many of the 424's have a similar locker with 6# tanks (and that 2nd solenoid) my guess is it was a standard option.John
—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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Now I know what that switch on the outer wall of the galley was for. My stove has only one solenoid in the locker and two LPG sensors in the bilge (which won't allow the solenoid to open if any one of them sense LPG). I'm sure the hose has been replaced from the locker on as it is all rubber with no copper.
Apparently, in Pelican, the PO or PO's PO did a lot of work including engine replacement, thru-hull replacements, and new LPG stuff. I wonder if it originally came with an alcohol stove because the LPG locker in the aft lazarette looks home-made and has horizontal 6lb tanks.
Anyone have any insight into that?
Bob
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 7:47 AM, quent < ([email][/email])> wrote:
we replaces ours on Clairebuoyant hull # 132.
A couple reasons:
Ther is a convergence at aft outboard corner of qtr berth where both copper propane lne, wires go thru bulkhead and the leaky bolts from the lifeline base are in proximity.
We added an inspection port behind the stove which gave access to this part of the line.
There was a second solinoid valve just forward of the stove in the storage locker, meaning there was an illegal break in the propane line.
The hose, premade on various lenghts is relatively cheap.
Propane can explode and kill you. IMHO, on an old boat, replace everything propane related. You already bought the stove, the most expensive part.
Also check the lower vent line from the propane locker to the transom, esp under the shelf. Some corrode thru and vent inside boat.
Quent—
Bob Fine
s/v Pelican
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Hi Tor,
I looked at a bunch of Whitbys before I bought the 424. The Whitbys typically were more expensive, but I hated the layout and the fact that I'd be on the floor unconscious most of the time going between the aft cabin and the main cabin.
It had a couple of features I really liked – like the table that folded down from the cushion side of the starboard settee and the engine access (pop a few bolts in the cockpit and raise the whole top of the engine compartment.
Other than that, I found them really cramped. I like the 424 much better. But that's just my opinion. There are a whole mess of Whitby owners that would beg to differ.
Bob
On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 7:41 PM, Silver Heels < ([email][/email])> wrote:
Quote:Hi Norris,Just curious: What do you mean about comparing 424 prices to Whitby 42's for perspective?
Tor
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Silver Heels, P-424 #17
http://www.SilverHeels.us
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